The Future of Fluid 40k

[MiggidyMack]

So we've been running some more numbers and with the INAT FAQ out now it covers a lot of the stuff I felt needed covering. So while I disagree with some rulings, I don't hate the whole thing... it's not enough for me to not use the INAT FAQ.

This leaves only 2 major things that Fluid40k does that the INAT FAQ doesn't:

1) Units functioning the same across the board. The old "Land Raiders are Land Raiders" credo we kind of started all this with. While it's certainly easier at the table it does add to the build time.

2) Allies. Especially Daemons.

So while the first one is a trade off we believe makes the game better (although requires a lot of testing to get right) the second one most people can do on their own. I mean really, the system is all about friendly games right? So the question becomes, do we still want to keep Fluid40k updated? Can we get everything we want into the next edition and then only update it when new Codex's come out?

This would give us a lot of time to work on other projects. Perhaps Mini-Dex's, more campaigns and more alternate rule systems. I just don't know how much more updating the system needs at this point. What do you guys think? What do you think Fluid40k needs from here? What would you like to see?

Help us doe a little more testing and explore what needs to happen for the April 17th version!

[Tricky Dick]

Ours is more awesome in nature and feels more like a good set of house rules where the INAT FAQ is more of a tournament system. Each serves a different purpose.

Like I've said before, just because something more official than ours comes out doesn't mean ours should die!

But then again, you do most of the work for it. So...it's your call.

[Karrik478]

You asked if I would mind giving you some feedback and so I will chip in. At this stage I wouldn't like to dissuade you from making the game more fun for you and your friends but I do seem to view the hobby differently to the DLT team and a sideways glance at the project may prove useful.

1) Units functioning the same across the board. The old "Land Raiders are Land Raiders" credo we kind of started all this with. While it's certainly easier at the table it does add to the build time.

This is what I most strongly disagree with.
Let me firstly talk a bit about "Land Raiders are Land Raiders". Equipment between armies is not uniform. Whist it can prove a seemingly annoying complication with Codices listing things with the same names with different stats these are a major addition to the fluff of the game.
Take the Black Templar Land Raider - they work differently because their Techpriests are significantly removed from brethren in other chapters. They have developed a type of smoke launcher that works in a more effective way than those on other Imperial vehicles. And why not? That adds color to the game that you are stripping away in the name of simplicity.

Now consider giving equipment to armies that do not have it listed within their codex. For example Grey Knights. Mack often complains about the lack of Drop Pods or Rhino without asking if there may be a reason for this. Grey Knights are not a Chapter of Imperial Space Marines. Nor are they a Legion. They do not have access to the Astartes Armory but instead carry the weapons borne by their brethren The Custodes.
They travel to war in the Ships of their kind alongside the Inquisition of Man. These craft retain technologies long since lost to the Tech-Priests of Mars - or never given over to them by a treacherous Emperor. These ships are capable of transporting entire formations of Power and Tactical Dreadnaught Armored Troops to specific locations without risking atmospheric flight. Why, when these technologies are available, would you slow the deployment of these highly specialised experts with APCs and Drop Ships? The answer - they don't!
They Grey Knight Terminators carry assault cannon that have more in common with their foes the Chaos Space Marines' Reaper Assault Cannon. Theirs is the weapon that was in development during the Heresy and requires far more maintenance than that carried by the Chapters. But they carry it because their weapons are those gifted to them by the Council of Dorn under the influence of the First Lord of Terra.

The Fluff justifies the RAW - to tamper with them is to tread a path that I will not travel.

2) Allies. Especially Daemons.

This game exists. Apocalypse.
Allies are too unbalancing at anything under 3000 points in 5th.
3rd Edition could cope but we play a different game now.

If you want allies then play Apocalypse. It is brilliant.

[MiggidyMack]

This is what I most strongly disagree with.
Let me firstly talk a bit about "Land Raiders are Land Raiders". Equipment between armies is not uniform. Whist it can prove a seemingly annoying complication with Codices listing things with the same names with different stats these are a major addition to the fluff of the game.
Take the Black Templar Land Raider - they work differently because their Techpriests are significantly removed from brethren in other chapters. They have developed a type of smoke launcher that works in a more effective way than those on other Imperial vehicles. And why not? That adds color to the game that you are stripping away in the name of simplicity.

Here is the rub. Do you think that the next book that comes out with a Land Raider in it will maintain that difference? If a new Black Templars army came out tomorrow would smoke launchers still work the old way? Jervis has said that the only reason they don't update old rules is because it's to much trouble. That the STC produces identical vehicles. That's SUPPOSED to be the fluff. Any variance is an act of Heresy... or so the fluff implies. If they were all different they would all be VERY different. Perhaps even within the same army.

All force weapons, for instance, do the same thing. They send the target to the warp. So why does the Daemonhunter with a force weapon work differently than others? I think the fluff is pretty consistent in this way, but the rules aren't. The question for me isn't "Do the rules reflect the STC and similiar fluff" but more "Do they need to?"

Is it necessary to make the fluff match the rules. Do we actually NEED a consistent game world physics? Although I am happy to debate the nature of techpriests and STC's all day!

Now consider giving equipment to armies that do not have it listed within their codex. For example Grey Knights. Mack often complains about the lack of Drop Pods or Rhino without asking if there may be a reason for this. Grey Knights are not a Chapter of Imperial Space Marines. Nor are they a Legion. They do not have access to the Astartes Armory but instead carry the weapons borne by their brethren The Custodes.
They travel to war in the Ships of their kind alongside the Inquisition of Man. These craft retain technologies long since lost to the Tech-Priests of Mars - or never given over to them by a treacherous Emperor. These ships are capable of transporting entire formations of Power and Tactical Dreadnaught Armored Troops to specific locations without risking atmospheric flight. Why, when these technologies are available, would you slow the deployment of these highly specialised experts with APCs and Drop Ships? The answer - they don't!

They Grey Knight Terminators carry assault cannon that have more in common with their foes the Chaos Space Marines' Reaper Assault Cannon. Theirs is the weapon that was in development during the Heresy and requires far more maintenance than that carried by the Chapters. But they carry it because their weapons are those gifted to them by the Council of Dorn under the influence of the First Lord of Terra.

The Fluff justifies the RAW - to tamper with them is to tread a path that I will not travel.

The Grey Knights ARE a chapter of Imperial Space Marines. That is very clear in the "Grey Knights" trilogy and in Codex Daemonhunters. They are 100% astartes marines. In the books they have Rhinos, Drop Pods, Thunderhawks... everything. Alaric talks to his chaplains, recalls Heavy Bolter training & a number of other things that only marines do. They ARE a unit of space marines and the only reason they don't have that stuff is because in 3rd edition a Str 6 "Rhino Rush" would have been overpowered. once again I'm referencing stuff Jervis has said in the past. There are also Forge World versions of all these vehicles for Grey Knights. The next Forgeworld rulebook is going to be all about that stuff.

There big difference is that they are mindcleansed before they become marines and they have extensive psychic shielding training.

However, if I assume that your approach is correct (i refer here to the idea that "you don't ride in a rhino when you can teleport") then we have one small rules problem. If you teleport... at all... ever... you are no longer scoring. That means at least two units of marines came down the slow way while the rest of the army teleported down. Why don't those units have rhinos? In the books they do... they actually use Chimera's which is odd! Mainly because they conscripted them... because their rhino's and razorbacks were destroyed during a space battle.

So if you say "Well they can use chimera's that they take from storm troopers in your army" then great... but once again GW said we can't. It's in the codex. This is the kind of circular situation where rules argue with the established fluff that I like to avoid.

Of course there are rumors of some kind of new GK release soon... I won't hold my breath though. Anyway I am getting off topic, this is less about fluid40k and more about my issues with a 2 editions old codex for my beloved army!

This game exists. Apocalypse.
Allies are too unbalancing at anything under 3000 points in 5th.
3rd Edition could cope but we play a different game now.

If you want allies then play Apocalypse. It is brilliant.

I agree. Although our testing shows that most "allies" situations are fine from an actual balance standpoint, I just don't think it's necessary for us to have them. Players who want to do it in pick up games can, they don't really need a set of rules to make that happen... ya know? I miss the old god specific armies. Jervis has said they want to come out with a series of Chaos Legions like they did for Space Marine chapters. If they did this it would certainly solve any problems with the loss of flavor.

We have also found that the current form of our allies rules helps alleviate some of the codex creep that we are seeing. Hopefully all of this becomes moot and GW starts printing a codex every 2 months!

[dezzo]

The Grey Knights are going to be very different when their new book rolls in. I have a feeling that they might be a standalone army. I'm actually surprised that FW isn't doing any Space Wolves and (another chapter which I cannot reveal atm) and instead GK (which would make sense since they have an existing line)

With regards to 40k, I support the idea that all Space Marine chapters whose codices contain the same equipment or vehicles to be all uniformly the same (stat-wise and ability) from the latest Space Marine codex.

However, this doesn't include points cost.

Taking the Landraider Crusader as the template, it is able to take 12 crew (instead of 10 from the old books) and the Machine Spirit rules for the new book applies to all the chapters.

Hence, what will make the chapters unique will be their army special rules (and not equipment)

However, it can be hard to "Fluid 40k" armies that are not of the Imperium nature (because there is no benchmark).

Without altering special rules or army wide abilities, perhaps one issue that can be tweaked better for armies is KP (which has been addressed in various degrees by Fluid 40k) and also more campaign scenarios and missions.

Mini- dexes will be quite difficult to handle, given that it is not supported by GW and hence a somewhat "illegal" army to use, unless for games with people you actually know (read: friends).

[MiggidyMack]

Well mini-dex's aren't "tournament illegal" but as long as you don't republish anything from the codex's or books you're fine. If a mini-dex unit is from another codex it needs to just reference the page ect. Which is part of what makes Fluid40k so cumbersome. OH IF ONLY I could simply reprint the stats!

[Tricky Dick]

Let me firstly talk a bit about "Land Raiders are Land Raiders". Equipment between armies is not uniform. Whist it can prove a seemingly annoying complication with Codices listing things with the same names with different stats these are a major addition to the fluff of the game.

So of the countless chapters of Space Marines in the 40K multiverse, only Dark Angels-Space Wolves-Blood Angels-Black Templars are different than the Ultramarines and every single other chapter? With the release of the 5th edition SM codex, did a light switch flip and instantaneously change every single chapter of SM except the above listed? From a fluff stand point, that's unbelieveable! You are correct in that varying versions of units/gear adds to the fluff of the game, but the fluff has either got to stay consistent with the rules or the rules have to stay consistent with the fluff!

I do not want to get into the minutiae of the details here about fluff for each SM chapter, but from what I remember, the chapters maintain their wargear and vehicles, but they come from Mars - a centralized manufacturing facility.

[Karrik478]

So of the countless chapters of Space Marines in the 40K multiverse, only Dark Angels-Space Wolves-Blood Angels-Black Templars are different than the Ultramarines and every single other chapter? With the release of the 5th edition SM codex, did a light switch flip and instantaneously change every single chapter of SM except the above listed? From a fluff stand point, that's unbelieveable! You are correct in that varying versions of units/gear adds to the fluff of the game, but the fluff has either got to stay consistent with the rules or the rules have to stay consistent with the fluff!

Dark Angels-Space Wolves-Blood Angels-Black Templars all represent a type of Chapter. A philosophy of War. They differ enough in Fluff terms that GW considers them worthy of an independent ruleset. This difference includes wargear.

The beauty of the ruleset as it exists is that you can represent divergent Commanders and their effects on their troops.
For example running a Raven Guard army using the Blood Angel Codex.
Raven Guard Commanders are notoriously strong willed. They are trained to work behind enemy line for long periods and without support of orders from their superiors. In order to achieve personal goals they - like their Primarch - may make compromising decisions that drive them to the very brink of sanity. Or even beyond.
During the later years of the Heresy Corax was forced to rebuild his Legion using questionable and sometimes forbidden technology. The price is still being paid to this day - the Geneseed of the Second Founding Chapters is unstable and sometime Brothers of many years loyal service are engulfed by a madness. Ordinarily those Brothers are transfered back to Deliverance where they are studied by the Chapters Apothcaries.
But what if a Commander is stuck in a prolonged Campaign? Would he be driven to use these Beastial Marines against the enemy. Corax used his perverted and degenerate offspring during the Scourging so why not? Read Index Astartes IV for some great Blood Angel = "Rogue" Raven Guard ideas.

How about White Scars being fielded using the Dark Angels Ravenwing rules? Sure you can use the Codex Space Marines to represent "The Hunt". But what of "The Spearhead"?
Jaghatai Khan did not just teach his Sons the Power of the Bow. How to encircle an enemy, how to out maneuver and pick at them at range until they were weakened and bleeding. The Khan also welded a Spear and so do his Foundling Chapters. They know to strike at an enemy who are already weak before they can grow strong. To break a defense before it can be formed.
A Commander of a White Scars Second Founding Brotherhood may see choose to lunge at the heart of a foe. The Scouting move allowed to Ravenwing armies represents this better than Outflank.
The Ravenwing = White Scars comes at a cost but a Commander who sees the need to diverge from Codex Astartes teaching to follow those of his Primarch understands and accepts those costs. He will answer to his Superiors tomorrow - but a win today will justify his actions.

Fielding Lo Chang lead Imperial Fists using the Black Templar rules is also obvious enough that I have seen it done on four different occasions.

I do not want to get into the minutiae of the details here about fluff for each SM chapter, but from what I remember, the chapters maintain their wargear and vehicles, but they come from Mars - a centralized manufacturing facility.

Not any more. Once - during the Great Crusade - but now most Chapters are responsible for their own equipment. Second Founding Chapters tithe the planets under their protection for recruits and/or supplies.
Some of the more revealing examples are the Space Wolf Bolterguns and the Imperial Fists relationship with Necromunda.
Space Wolf Bolters are slightly larger than those fielded by other Chapters because they are made of substandard materials. They often have bone or wood components because of the limited supplies of metal on Fenris.
The Imperial Fists are a Space faring Chapter and have no single home planet. Instead they tithe recruits from planets that owe them a debt.

[MiggidyMack]

Not any more. Once - during the Great Crusade - but now most Chapters are responsible for their own equipment. Second Founding Chapters tithe the planets under their protection for recruits and/or supplies.
Some of the more revealing examples are the Space Wolf Bolterguns and the Imperial Fists relationship with Necromunda.
Space Wolf Bolters are slightly larger than those fielded by other Chapters because they are made of substandard materials. They often have bone or wood components because of the limited supplies of metal on Fenris.
The Imperial Fists are a Space faring Chapter and have no single home planet. Instead they tithe recruits from planets that owe them a debt.

Hmm, this is new information to me. Is there a 40k wiki I can just read everything on for the next version?

[Tricky Dick]

That's good information on all points. I will claim the high ground of ignorance as I never sought out the fluff/novels to read until the last few months. So far, I've read all the Horus Heresy books out and thought perhaps that Mars was still the central technology hub. Following logic, I thought Mars would, after the heresy, take prominence for technology.

My other point kind of went un-answered though. For argument's sake, I'm going to say that the differently named Space Marine codices came out roughly at the same time as the 3rd edition codex. Let me just make that blanket statement for my point (no need to correct me as I know newer versions of each named SM codex has come out since then, mostly). But the Land Raider worked a certain way in the 3rd edition SM codex and it worked just a bit differently in the DH/WH and other named SM codices. Then 4th edition SM codex came out and it worked just a bit differently than its previous version and still a bit differently than the named SM codices. Then 5th edition SM codex came out and yet again we have just a bit different Land Raider than the named codices and previous SM codices.

My question/point was that these versions were just slightly different from each other (with no time line advancement in game terms) from other like types. I understand that some chapters would use varying versions of it, but in game/fluff terms it's unbelievable that these SM changes would happen over no time line advance (in the game) but these other versions are still the same.

I can't speak for Mack or Dan on this, but I got involved in Fluid 40K to help standardize these differences; to account for these layers of change in the same game time period. With AD&D, it's easy to see these changes be dealt with because you simply stop using older versions of rule books and started using new ones. GW is not producing new books for us to use in some of these armies. I have no analogy save this: using these older codices in this new game is like using AD&D 2.5 edition supplements in the AD&D 4th edition world - you can't! While the stat lines and powers are easily comprehensible in their own right, the current standard of 40K is such that people feel like they are being penalized for using an older army. It's like paying your ticket to see a Cubs game and sitting behind the steel I-beam under the 2nd deck. While you might see the pitches and the deep outfield/homerun wall, you don't see the bases or anything else in the middle!

If not Fluid40K, then what would be your answer? Keep in mind, I'm not looking for a "keep the status quo" answer...